Questions.

Vena has made a very important point in flagging up the fact that rescue GSDs (who are often the result of two owners of unregistered dogs deciding it would be fun to have a litter) may well be fitter than the very highly bred dogs. I think my original question could be boiled down to asking whether the KC would accept allowing breeds to become slightly more variable if that could be shown to promote better overall health - I´m thinking of the difference between show dogs and, for example, border collies or jack russells which aren´t "mongrels" in the sense that if you breed two JRTs the result will always be a recognisable JR, not a complete surprise, but they´re not expected to be almost carbon copies of each other either.

I´d like to ask whether the KC has any plans to instigate a policy where breeders need to pass on a medical history of the family line. Like a log book on a car. This is happens with registered horses. They even have passports! Why not have something similar for pedigree dogs. This would undemonize the good guys (I am sure the vast majority are loving responsible pet owners) and put pressure on the bad as they would need the paper work to sell the dogs for the desired premium.

Certainly NOT ed, i was quite shocked to see the top German dog moving like that considering all the rigorous tests they have to go through,l was trying to point out that most gsd breeders do carry out HD, H and Elbow testing, but as i said they still have a long way to go, and judges play a huge part in this also as its them that put the dogs up.
Having two rescue shephards myself i have no idea of there breeding, but thankfully they are sound.

Hi Vena - Are you saying the GSD´s in the BBC film at the show, with their legs pointing backwards, so the dogs were wedge shaped - and couldnt walk properly, were OK? The judge was very critical of "proper" GSD´s and suggested the ideal ones had to have their legs pointing backwards at the weird angle. Surely thats not OK - I´ve never seen a police dog looking like those show dogs.

As a GSD enthusiast l feel i should say something in there defence, BEFORE you all come down on me like a TON of BRICKS, yes i know there is a lot of work to be done in the breed.But !!!
One of the dogs shown in the programme was Zamp vom Thermodos, top winning dog in Germany of all times, before he could enter the show ring certain qualifications are required.(as with all German dogs )
Zamps qualifications are, Schutzund 3--- F.H Tracking qualifications-- Gun Tested for stable temperament -- Hips Certified Normal, he also had to do a 12 mile Endurance test.
The GSD breeders were the first to bring in the H.D scheme, which was originally for the GSD but other breeds found it beneficial, so joined up. Some lines in GSD were found to be passing on Heamophilia, so testing was brought in for that along with Elbow testing, most breeders do adhere to the HD -H and Elbow testing in this country, but unlike Germany is Voluntary here, yes i would like to see all working breeds doing what they were originally bred for, not just for the show ring. Rant Over !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Inbreeding depression (again from Rosemary R)
It´s quite complicated, and seems to be something the KC simply haven´t taken on board (or perhaps are in denial about). Basically the problem is that many genes are optimal when the animal (or human) has 2 slightly different copies inherited from either parent. A very simple example might be genes for height where both very tall and very short individuals are less "fit" than medium ones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding_depression

Line-breeding and inbreeding tend to increase the numbers of animals who have identical copies of some genes (because the same gene is inherited from both parents if the parents are closely related). If the "healthiest" state is to have non-identical copies then *even if the breeder is consciously trying to select for health* he or she may be decreasing the general fitness of the breed.

There´s some evidence that hip dysplasia is one condition that may be made more likely by inbreeding
http://ethesis.helsinki.fi/julkaisut/maa/kotie/vk/maki/breeding.pdf

NB it´s also possible to have outbreeding depression if you make wild crosses between incompatible breeds. I don´t think this has been demonstrated in dogs, but I think we ought to be very cautious about going to the opposite extreme and suggesting really bizarre crosses (whippet x bulldog for example).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outbreeding_depression

Rosemary Rodd has also commented:-

. . . my gut feeling is that a lot of the aggro. is happening because on the whole the KC breeders are NOT "puppy-farmer" types and actually do care about their dogs, but don´t have adequate knowledge (or worse have incorrect knowledge). That might make some kind of health certification problematic if they just insisted that the parents WERE very healthy (as Cavaliers go).

Some kind of requirement to attend a course on modern population genetics before registering as a KC breeder might help - or maybe some kind of Michelin star system to help members of the public identify breeders who have particularly high standards.

I wonder whether something might be done via pet insurers - some of them charge extra for certain breeds and if this was publicised more widely it might be an incentive for breeders to work to reduce their particular breed´s surcharge.

One thing I´d like to see would be some kind of working test for all breeds so that no dog could become a breed champion without an appropriate working qualification so that at least we wouldn´t have the spectacle of GSDs who can hardly walk, let alone do an agility course (KC Canine good citizen would be appropriate for toy breeds).

one of my question is , what is the kennel club going to do about the breeder at the end of the show who,s dog has syringamyelia and is allowed tostill breed from him, they knew he had it. and also. when is this inbreeding going to stop. it causes many heartaches for the owners who have to cope with seeing their babies suffer.

Has the KC any plans to compare current longevity of dogs with those quoted in breed handbooks several decades ago? The reason why I´m asking is that one of my aunts used to breed Samoyeds and as a result I happen to know that 30 years back the expected longevity would be quoted as 17 years. When the pedigree dogs story broke, out of curiosity I looked up the current age and was quite shocked to see that it was given as 14 years.

It does seem to me that this would be a statistic that could give an objective comparison of breed health now and in the past and would be something that could give a handle on the specific problems resulting from decreased heterozygosity causing inbreeding depression as opposed to problems caused by exaggerated features of the breed standard.

As a breeder of pedigree dogs (not a monster as far as I know!) I would like to ask the KC if they plan to police the accredited breeder scheme more rigourosly as at present all of the suggestions are only guidelines and not compulsory. Until it is compulsory to provide documented evidence of health screening, puppy info etc I will not join. If it was compulsory to provide hip score forms, eye test certs etc and provide your puppy info packs (which take me hours to produce) then I would sign up immediately and be proud to say I was accredited.

I would like to ask the producer why her programme was so unbalanced in it´s views? I am not saying that all of the things shown don´t go on and that they aren´t totally abhorent, however there are many thousands of us who are responsible, conscientious and love our dogs wholeheartedly. Even in the showring, if one of my dogs was unhappy or uncomfortable in any way I would take it out, as I have done in the past. Not all breeds or breeders are monsters!

Rosie ray has suggested:- Questions for Caroline Kisko

1. What is the KC planning to do following the revelations of the Documentary
2) How does the KC justify allowing dogs with major health issues to compete
3) How does the KC justify the breeding on of dogs with a genetic problem
4) What are your thoughts on culling healthy puppies who dont reach the breed standard
5) Will the KC be considering reviewing its breed standards to take into account the welfare issues
6) The ABS doesnt appear to be worth the paper its written on for anyone wishing to buy a pedigree dog. Is it just an
income generating exercise
7) Will the KC consider doing spot checks on breeders and check out their breeding programme before giving them an approved breeders certificate
8) Will the KC consider a hefty fine or expulsion from the KC for any breeder that brings the Fancy into disrepute

Mary Elms haas already asked :-
These were my two questions that I added onto the original thread about Pedigree Dogs.

How did the KC view those dogs in the Show ring (on the BBC prog),that were either unhealthy or clearly conformationally unsound YET deemed by the judges as normal AND WORSE.....Acceptable ???????.
Isn´t that going against what the KC supposedly does not agree with or allow in the judges at such show´s ?????????.

And going on what Vena said about the Accredited Breeder´s Scheme....it´s a farce and need´s a MAJOR overhaul,to be promoted as worthwhile and valid,I would say...what is their opinion on that ??????????????.